Dan - consider improving http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newsgroups by
adding to that article your observations about spammers harvesting
email addresses from newsgroups. You could do this anonymously.

There tend to be long discussions on the Talk pages - the Newsgroups
article hasn't got much talk on its discussion page, though. Just jump in.

No one's disagreeing with you here, but don't hold your breath: MS has
written off OE for all intents and purposes so we are NOT going to see any
enhancements/improvements/new features. Whether we'll ever see similar Help
pages or newsgroup safety notices in Windows Mail (Vista) or Windows Live
Mail Desktop remains to be seen.

[It may interest you to know that a few years ago we sat down to discuss
newsgroups with the OE team and the team that was handling the design of the
new web-interface, and found out that NONE of these MS employees had ever
(1) used or seen a newsgroup or (2) had used OE as a newsreader! I swear to
G-d that's true.]
--
~PA Bear


Dan wrote:
Thanks PA Bear, but please note: I already know this, now. The issue the
gets me stirred up is that there is not any warning in the help files of
OE
about setup so that a user knowns this in 'advance' before the problem
appears and its already too late...

"PA Bear" wrote in message
...
No one's disagreeing with you here, but don't hold your breath: MS has
written off OE for all intents and purposes so we are NOT going to see any
enhancements/improvements/new features. Whether we'll ever see similar
Help pages or newsgroup safety notices in Windows Mail (Vista) or Windows
Live Mail Desktop remains to be seen.

[It may interest you to know that a few years ago we sat down to discuss
newsgroups with the OE team and the team that was handling the design of
the new web-interface, and found out that NONE of these MS employees had
ever (1) used or seen a newsgroup or (2) had used OE as a newsreader! I
swear to G-d that's true.]
--
~PA Bear


Dan wrote:
Thanks PA Bear, but please note: I already know this, now. The issue the
gets me stirred up is that there is not any warning in the help files of
OE
about setup so that a user knowns this in 'advance' before the problem
appears and its already too late...

"Dan" wrote in message
...
Thanks PA Bear, but please note: I already know this, now. The issue the
gets me stirred up is that there is not any warning in the help files of
OE about setup so that a user knowns this in 'advance' before the problem
appears and its already too late. There is no reference to additional info
on the web there either. I am aware that this information does exist
elseware, but it forces the user to search the net possibly extensively
for this info, and during a search, a variety of help pages on this issue
neglect to mention this also, including some of Microsoft's own pages such
as: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/...ups/howto.mspx Note
that this page only says, "enter your email address" which misleads a user
to enter a real address, no mention of alternatives. So even a user who
attempts to search for additional info may continue thinking no risk
exists and end their search there. A user must get lucky to come across
the proper info first such as:
http://www.michaelstevenstech.com/ou...snewreader.htm which is 3rd
party, or:
http://www.microsoft.com/wn3/locales...mailAndPrivacy
which at first glance appears to be directed at the web based application
and might be discounted by those looking for OE info. (Thankyou to Michael
Jennings for pointing me to this one also in his recent post.)

I know some people don't even read instructions before they do things, but
I do. So I, like many others, could not possibly foresee the solution,
without any indication that a problem exists in the first place. Some have
suggested that it is my fault and I just should have known this, I guess
through 'devine' revelation, but I think most understand my point. I also
take acception with the fact that an email address is even displayed
rather than just a username, as it appears to have absolutely no necessity
for the functioning of ng's. I realize that this software was likely
written long ago, but probably neglected for upgrade to address the
current internet environment. If there is no intention to begin blocking
the email address after the username in ng's, I think that at least a
patch should be added which will prominently display and warn the user to
this risk during setup for ng in OE, or a warning text in the help files
for ng setup. And pages on MS's site like the first link example above
should be updated.

While the real problem is the spammer scum and the gov'ts lack of enacting
and enforcing internet protection, a few small actions as noted above
could go a long way toward combating at least large part of this problem.

Thankyou to you also PA Bear for all the generous help you have provided
to users here, you are appreciated.
Merry Chrismas, and Happy Holidays to you,
Dan


"PA Bear" wrote in message
...
QP
About e-mail addresses and privacy
It is highly likely that you will receive unwanted messages (spam) in
your regular e-mail account if you use your actual, unmodified e-mail
address as your display e-mail address in a discussion group. Note that
your display e-mail address is different from your notification e-mail
address. Your notification e-mail address must be a real e-mail address
in order for you to be notified; it is stored privately by Microsoft. It
is not visible to the Community. However, your display e-mail address is
public and visible to everyone in the Community.

People who send unwanted bulk e-mail (spammers) regularly gather e-mail
addresses from discussion groups. To help prevent spam in your regular
e-mail account, the default display e-mail address when you post a
message in a discussion group is
. The following are the display
e-mail address options you can choose from:

Use a false display e-mail address we generate for you
The default address will be
used when you post a message if you do not change your display e-mail
address.

Use a modified display e-mail address
Use a different version of your e-mail address that others will
understand, but that spam tools can't automatically pick up. For example,
if an actual e-mail address were , we would recommend
modifying it to one of the following:

.(donotspam)



_SPAM

In this case, the spam tools will send mail to an invalid e-mail address,
and others will know to exclude the invalid information when they send
you e-mail.

Use a secondary e-mail account
Set up or use an e-mail account, such as a Hotmail account, that is
separate from your primary account for posting to discussion groups.
/QP
Source:
http://www.microsoft.com/wn3/locales...mailAndPrivacy

The above is admittedly from an MS page about using the web-based
newsreader and the same caveats /should/ be prominent on pages about
using NNTP newsreaders (e.g.,
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/...ps/howto.mspx).
--
~Robear Dyer (PA Bear)
MS MVP-Windows (IE, OE, Security, Shell/User)

Dan wrote:
snip
Let me say that I have found this forum EXTREMELY helpful for solving
problems. Bruce Hagen, if he is still around, did an excellent job
assisting
me. He also alerted me to the fact that my real email address was
available
to all on this forum, BECAUSE MICROSOFT FAILS TO WARN & INSTRUCT USERS
WHEN
SETTING UP OUTLOOK EXPRESS TO USE THESE NEWSGROUPS, that you should NOT,
I
repeat NOT, NOT, NOT enter your real email address...

I understand your intentions were to warn others about using their real
e-mail address, {so let's not argue :-)} but MS does offer a spam warning.
It just doesn't jump out and grab you by the throat.

Open Internet Explorer | Help | Online Support | Self Support Options |
Microsoft Technical Communities | Communities And Privacy (
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...t/default.mspx )

".............Microsoft advises that newsgroup and community participants*
should consider avoiding posting to newsgroups, chats, or other public
forums using their real email address.Microsoft advises that newsgroup and
community participants* should consider avoiding posting to newsgroups,
chats, or other public forums using their real email
address...................".

IMHO, I think finding a way to rid the world of spam, period, would make for
better conversation.

P.S. Looking at your headers, I believe you have some Windows Updates
waiting for you.
--
Bruce Hagen
MS-MVP Outlook Express
~IB-CA~

"Dan" wrote in message
...
This is not a request for assistance, but rather a warning for newer users
here, to hopefully prevent you from the same frustrations I have
experienced as a result of using this forum.

Let me say that I have found this forum EXTREMELY helpful for solving
problems. Bruce Hagen, if he is still around, did an excellent job
assisting me. He also alerted me to the fact that my real email address
was available to all on this forum, BECAUSE MICROSOFT FAILS TO WARN &
INSTRUCT USERS WHEN SETTING UP OUTLOOK EXPRESS TO USE THESE NEWSGROUPS,
that you should NOT, I repeat NOT, NOT, NOT enter your real email
address!!!!!!!!!!

When I set this up, it required me to enter an email address in order to
post here. Nothing warned me that my REAL address would be easily
accessible to all here, NOR did instruct me that I could enter a false
address to thwart the spammers when entering the REQUIRED email address
during sign-up!!!!

Had Microsoft offered this very simple instruction in the beginning, I am
absolutely convinced that I would have NEVER, EVER, received ANY SPAM!!!!
This is on their network afterall, and their NEGLIGENCE to provide this
security information has caused me a great deal of headache, that now
seems will NEVER go away, making me wish I had never, ever used this
newsgroup in the first place!!!

Thank you to Bruce Hagen for recognizing and informing me about this
dangerous security breach. It would have been better if Microsoft were
RESPONSIBLE enough to have given this information in the newsgroup setup
instructions and process!!!!!

The RESULT of this NEGLIGENCE on Microsoft's part is that after just a few
postings before Bruce's alert to me, I am now bombarded on this email
account daily for the last 9 MONTHS by spammers, and ONLY on this account.
I have NEVER received spam on ANY OTHER email account I have. Many of
these spams have been VIRUSES & WORMS!!!! And luckily my Anti-Virus
scanners have been able to remove them. Although I immediately followed
Bruce's intructions to change the email address displayed, it was too
late, and I don't think there is anyway for me to remove the previous
postings with the real email address. So Microsoft has left me with breach
in security which it seems I can NEVER fix, unless I CANCEL this email
account. That is really SAD!!! and worse yet, it was TOTALLY
UNNECESSARY!!!

If Microsoft were honestly SERIOUS about network security, they would
alert ALL people to this security breach before allowing them to use these
newsgroups!!

I don't even want to imagine how much worse this would be if Bruce had not
alerted me to this issue at all, but I hope this message will possibly
assist others in avoiding the headaches I have had.

And Thanks A Lot Microsoft... I thought your mission was to provide
solutions to the masses, not to cause extra problems... but what do I know
anyway.

Best of Luck to All,
Sincerely,
D.

I /knew/ I'd seen something else on this somewhere. Thanks.

Bruce Hagen wrote:
snip
Open Internet Explorer | Help | Online Support | Self Support Options |
Microsoft Technical Communities | Communities And Privacy (
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...t/default.mspx )

".............Microsoft advises that newsgroup and community participants*
should consider avoiding posting to newsgroups, chats, or other public
forums using their real email address.Microsoft advises that newsgroup and
community participants* should consider avoiding posting to newsgroups,
chats, or other public forums using their real email
address...................".
snip

Hi Bruce, if your comment about Windows Updates was for me, thanks, most
were updated this morning with the exception of IE7 which I don't want right
now. From the look of the conversations here about the problems it is
causing with OE, I think I'll wait a bit longer on that one. I have no
concerns with my surfing habits on IE6 right now. With regards to the rest,
I just sent another post before this one which expands on that, but I think
we generally agree. Off for work now. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to
you Bruce! -Dan


"Bruce Hagen" wrote in message
...
I understand your intentions were to warn others about using their real
e-mail address, {so let's not argue :-)} but MS does offer a spam warning.
It just doesn't jump out and grab you by the throat.

Open Internet Explorer | Help | Online Support | Self Support Options |
Microsoft Technical Communities | Communities And Privacy (
http://www.microsoft.com/communities...t/default.mspx )

".............Microsoft advises that newsgroup and community participants*
should consider avoiding posting to newsgroups, chats, or other public
forums using their real email address.Microsoft advises that newsgroup and
community participants* should consider avoiding posting to newsgroups,
chats, or other public forums using their real email
address...................".

IMHO, I think finding a way to rid the world of spam, period, would make
for
better conversation.

P.S. Looking at your headers, I believe you have some Windows Updates
waiting for you.
--
Bruce Hagen
MS-MVP Outlook Express
~IB-CA~

"Dan" wrote in message
...
This is not a request for assistance, but rather a warning for newer
users
here, to hopefully prevent you from the same frustrations I have
experienced as a result of using this forum.

Let me say that I have found this forum EXTREMELY helpful for solving
problems. Bruce Hagen, if he is still around, did an excellent job
assisting me. He also alerted me to the fact that my real email address
was available to all on this forum, BECAUSE MICROSOFT FAILS TO WARN &
INSTRUCT USERS WHEN SETTING UP OUTLOOK EXPRESS TO USE THESE NEWSGROUPS,
that you should NOT, I repeat NOT, NOT, NOT enter your real email
address!!!!!!!!!!

When I set this up, it required me to enter an email address in order to
post here. Nothing warned me that my REAL address would be easily
accessible to all here, NOR did instruct me that I could enter a false
address to thwart the spammers when entering the REQUIRED email address
during sign-up!!!!

Had Microsoft offered this very simple instruction in the beginning, I am
absolutely convinced that I would have NEVER, EVER, received ANY SPAM!!!!
This is on their network afterall, and their NEGLIGENCE to provide this
security information has caused me a great deal of headache, that now
seems will NEVER go away, making me wish I had never, ever used this
newsgroup in the first place!!!

Thank you to Bruce Hagen for recognizing and informing me about this
dangerous security breach. It would have been better if Microsoft were
RESPONSIBLE enough to have given this information in the newsgroup setup
instructions and process!!!!!

The RESULT of this NEGLIGENCE on Microsoft's part is that after just a
few
postings before Bruce's alert to me, I am now bombarded on this email
account daily for the last 9 MONTHS by spammers, and ONLY on this
account.
I have NEVER received spam on ANY OTHER email account I have. Many of
these spams have been VIRUSES & WORMS!!!! And luckily my Anti-Virus
scanners have been able to remove them. Although I immediately followed
Bruce's intructions to change the email address displayed, it was too
late, and I don't think there is anyway for me to remove the previous
postings with the real email address. So Microsoft has left me with
breach
in security which it seems I can NEVER fix, unless I CANCEL this email
account. That is really SAD!!! and worse yet, it was TOTALLY
UNNECESSARY!!!

If Microsoft were honestly SERIOUS about network security, they would
alert ALL people to this security breach before allowing them to use
these
newsgroups!!

I don't even want to imagine how much worse this would be if Bruce had
not
alerted me to this issue at all, but I hope this message will possibly
assist others in avoiding the headaches I have had.

And Thanks A Lot Microsoft... I thought your mission was to provide
solutions to the masses, not to cause extra problems... but what do I
know
anyway.

Best of Luck to All,
Sincerely,
D.

"Bruce Hagen" wrote in message
...
I understand your intentions were to warn others about using their real
e-mail address, {so let's not argue :-)} but MS does offer a spam warning.
It just doesn't jump out and grab you by the throat.


In the case of these pages, not at all:

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/com.../nntpnews.mspx

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/...ups/howto.mspx

(Live Search for
msnews site:microsoft.com
)


I was wondering where he would have found out about msnews... eg


Ah. Here's one. Same search. Lower down.

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/sub.../aa948868.aspx

quote
If you enter your real e-mail address, you will likely receive unwanted messages (spam)
because spammers regularly gather e-mail addresses from public communities.
We highly recommend that you use a modified version of your e-mail address.
/quote


FYI


Robert
---

Just a quick note to add: it does appear that MS is concerned about spammers
collecting email addresses over networks that they own, but only if they can
collect money from it. They claim the spammers cost them goodwill and they
deserve to be compensated for that loss when it concerns networks they own.
You can read about it he
http://sympatico-msn-ca.com.com/Judg...ubj=ns_6144548 I
guess its just too bad they will be unlikely to spend their judgement money
on fixing the MSnewsgroup email address harvesting over "their" network
here. But they are right, it certainly has created lost goodwill from me!
And I guess we better hope that this guy in UK doesn't appeal on grounds
that if MS believes so strongly in their case, how come they continue to
allow the harvesting here?! Just a point to ponder... Hmmm!

And PA Bear, what you mentioned earlier about sitting down with the OE team
way back, and finding none of them had even used or seen a newsgroup, nor
used OE as a newsreader... that does sound ridiculous, but I have no doubt
its true... just lends more to my argument about negligence, sounds like a
total lack of diligence on their part...hahahaha

Peace all!
Dan



"Dan" wrote in message
...
This is not a request for assistance, but rather a warning for newer users
here, to hopefully prevent you from the same frustrations I have
experienced as a result of using this forum.

Let me say that I have found this forum EXTREMELY helpful for solving
problems. Bruce Hagen, if he is still around, did an excellent job
assisting me. He also alerted me to the fact that my real email address
was available to all on this forum, BECAUSE MICROSOFT FAILS TO WARN &
INSTRUCT USERS WHEN SETTING UP OUTLOOK EXPRESS TO USE THESE NEWSGROUPS,
that you should NOT, I repeat NOT, NOT, NOT enter your real email
address!!!!!!!!!!

When I set this up, it required me to enter an email address in order to
post here. Nothing warned me that my REAL address would be easily
accessible to all here, NOR did instruct me that I could enter a false
address to thwart the spammers when entering the REQUIRED email address
during sign-up!!!!

Had Microsoft offered this very simple instruction in the beginning, I am
absolutely convinced that I would have NEVER, EVER, received ANY SPAM!!!!
This is on their network afterall, and their NEGLIGENCE to provide this
security information has caused me a great deal of headache, that now
seems will NEVER go away, making me wish I had never, ever used this
newsgroup in the first place!!!

Thank you to Bruce Hagen for recognizing and informing me about this
dangerous security breach. It would have been better if Microsoft were
RESPONSIBLE enough to have given this information in the newsgroup setup
instructions and process!!!!!

The RESULT of this NEGLIGENCE on Microsoft's part is that after just a few
postings before Bruce's alert to me, I am now bombarded on this email
account daily for the last 9 MONTHS by spammers, and ONLY on this account.
I have NEVER received spam on ANY OTHER email account I have. Many of
these spams have been VIRUSES & WORMS!!!! And luckily my Anti-Virus
scanners have been able to remove them. Although I immediately followed
Bruce's intructions to change the email address displayed, it was too
late, and I don't think there is anyway for me to remove the previous
postings with the real email address. So Microsoft has left me with breach
in security which it seems I can NEVER fix, unless I CANCEL this email
account. That is really SAD!!! and worse yet, it was TOTALLY
UNNECESSARY!!!

If Microsoft were honestly SERIOUS about network security, they would
alert ALL people to this security breach before allowing them to use these
newsgroups!!

I don't even want to imagine how much worse this would be if Bruce had not
alerted me to this issue at all, but I hope this message will possibly
assist others in avoiding the headaches I have had.

And Thanks A Lot Microsoft... I thought your mission was to provide
solutions to the masses, not to cause extra problems... but what do I know
anyway.

Best of Luck to All,
Sincerely,
D.